Read the Moby Dick Scuttlebutt
Moby Dick Scuttlebutt |
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Rebecca Brown says: I updated the library M-D blog post with a few more Moby-Diversions. Scroll to the bottom and be sure to click on the "streaming trailer" link. http://www.takomapark.info/library/mt/archives/002204.html Richard Levine says: Hi, having just sent a message, I thought that I would add that we all could add to the list of entertainment and folk heroes I listed any number of actual historical figures and episodes from history including Columbus, Andrew Jackson, the Battle of New Orleans and the list goes on and on. Richard Levine says: I was very impressed with the insightful replies that a scuttlebutt message that I posted evoked. I took from these comments that there was agreement that Moby Dick depicted the cruelty and/or stupidity of humanity, with the point of contention being whether this was this authors intent. On one level I dont think that this point of contention is vital as the message (the cruelty and/or stupidity of humanity) of the book appears to remain the same to our group whether the author was engaging in a menippean satire or telling a droll tale of the perils and yes, heroics, of whaling. But on another level I think the issue of intent is crucial. I grew up in era where I remember such destructive acts perpetrated on life and the environment being placed in an heroic context. For example, I remember Buffalo Bill being glorified as a major American western hero, having earned his name through his bloody participation in the near extinction of a species, I remember the mythical character Paul Bunyan who was a folk hero of epic proportion for being able to chop down every tree in every state he ever strode, the glorification of big game hunters, and cowboy or cavalry movies where the Indians would be killed in droves like match stick figures and the wounding or rare death of any cowboy or member of the cavalry being a major tragedy. Although our society appears to have moved well beyond these views, I still sadly observe that we state that only a handful of Americans died in the first Iraq war although it resulted in the death of a hundred thousand match stick Iraqi soldiers and the second Iraq invasion where we mournfully tally the loss of about 4,000 Americans, but hardly tally or mourn the hundreds of thousands of Iraqis who died like matchstick Indians. So I do think that intent forms the moral context for evaluating the third criteria for judging art was it worth doing? I wrote earlier that I did not come away from Moby Dick with a truth that I have incorporated in my thoughts, but upon reflection I have come away from Moby Dick with a grim truth. Whether the author intended it or not, I come away regarding Ahab as symbolic of our obsessive thoughtless attempt to conquer and exploit nature, with Moby Dick as nature which is more powerful and can thwart our plans to exploit it, and of the Pequod as humanity which will be smashed to smithereens if it engages in this foolhardy pursuit. I mull over this symbolism as I watch the oil slick work its way to the Gulf coast shore. I am not sure where this will lead our discussion, but greatly appreciate the level of literary knowledge and insight of the replies to my first message and they have helped me consider Moby Dick from a deeper and enhanced perspective. Regards, Richard Mark Fisher says: First, and truly: Tyank you Richard Levine for laying out the "contrarian" case relative to Moby Dick. There are a few thoughts relative to your notes that I would like to reply to: > Unlike other great works of literature that remain a part of me because they have expressed a > perspective that I have incorporated into my own thinking for life, I dont leave Moby Dick the > same way I leave many Shakespeare plays or other great works of literature mulling on truths > that I incorporate in my thoughts. Well, I do. Relative to history, I have a glimmer of the deep texture of one of the most complex industries in mid 17th century industrial technology. I have a glimmer of the immensity of the ocean and the scale of mans efforts within its kingdom. I have a glimmer of mans ability to blind himself to reality and follow his own dreams to the destruction of those around him. I have a glimmer of mans ability to blind himself to reality and follow another mans vision, no matter what the cost. I have a glimmer of mans ability to watch and witness and remain an aware observer of a developing cataclysm. > Actually, I leave Moby Dick kind of appalled at the cruelty and stupidity of man > which the book seems more to romanticize than to condemn. As others have said, I suspect that that was one of Melvilles intentions. > I do not find enough redeeming words that can be cherry picked in the novel to spin the novel into > a modern consciousness and counter what I see as its general tone stated over and over that the whale > is a demon because it has the temerity to fight against its tormenters and killers. This reminds me of Napoleons censor in Marat/Sade: I always thought plays were meant to be entertaining. But how can entertainment deal in sarcasm and violence? I always thought poets strove to evoke pure beauty. But what is beautiful about whipping and corpses? And I was always taught that philosophys intention was to elevate man above the beasts, but Monsieur De Sade, your philosophy seems cold, almost savage, and, worst of all, pessimistic. It is a tragedy, but a tragedy of the situation, not of personal narrative. Again, thanks for your spark, Mark Fisher John Clarke says: While probably not needing to be as feisty as D.H. Lawrence, Melville might have agreed with what Lawrence said of his own writing - "After all, the world is not a stage -- not to me: nor a theatre: nor a show-house of any sort. And art, especially novels, are not little theatres where the reader sits aloft and watches... and sighs, commiserates, condones and smiles. That's what you want a book to be: because it leaves you so safe and superior, with your two-dollar ticket to the show. And that's what my books are not and never will be. Whoever reads me will be in the thick of the scrimmage, and if he doesn't like it -- if he wants a safe seat in the audience -- let him read someone else." - D. H. Lawrence - to Carlo Linati, 22 Jan. 1925 Speaking of Melville & Lawrence, here are weblinks for those who want to read the complete essays in this fascinating book - D. H. Lawrence - Studies in Classic American Literature - http://xroads.virginia.edu/~HYPER/LAWRENCE/dhltoc.htm ch.11 - on Melville's Moby Dick - http://xroads.virginia.edu/~HYPER/LAWRENCE/dhlch11.htm & ch.10 - on Melville's Typee & Omoo - http://xroads.virginia.edu/~HYPER/LAWRENCE/dhlch10.htm John Clarke says: I do not know Richard Levine, but hope he's feeling better soon. I hate to disappoint him, but I can offer no brickbats in response to his frank comments on his feelings about the book. I only offer kudos, along with countervailing dissents. I agree wholeheartedly with Mel Raff's points, especially that Melville does NOT romanticize the cruelty and stupidity of man toward the environment and other living creatures "but rather presents that romanticization itself as an object of ridicule." To me, Melville seems far ahead of his time in contributing to our current (however still inadequate) ecological consciousness. I'm glad that Richard Levine has come to appreciate Shakepeare's King Lear (& hope he'll give Melville - if not Ahab - more of a chance). I agree it would indeed be silly to compare the character of Ahab to that of Lear. Ahab (perhaps because he retains "power" to the bitter end?) hardly reaches the consciousness of a Macbeth of the sound and fury, much less the great final wisdom of Lear in the transcendent tenderness of his reunion with Cordelia at their end. But I think it's fair to credit Melville for not only honoring his love of Shakespeare's language, but for setting his own works on (marine and other) terrain worthy of a Lear (and a Job) - where we are brought to consider that "unaccommodated man is no more but such a poor, bare forkd animal as thou art!" Jack Greer says: The following is from Jack Greer, a good friend and colleague who read the posts by Richard Levine and Mel Raff: I read Richard and Mel's comments with great interest. I remember D.H. Lawrence's assessment of Melville, that at times he "just brays and brays." He does, indeed, go on. What was remarkable was in how few words Mel Raff was able to explain what Melville was about, his satirical (ideational) mode. "O, ye Pantheists, heed this well..." (If one wants to see just how "ideational" Melville could get, read "Mardi"....) There is also another dimension which I think is hard to explain in a short space, but which Charles Fidelson does so well in "Symbolism in American Literature." And that has to do with the nature of symbolic writing of a new kind, as it took shape in America. Melville's genius was in pulling this off without quite knowing what he was doing. In much of literature we have elements that "symbolize" -- we all study that in grade school. Most often this is where one thing "stands" for another. I remember studying this in English literature -- everything from the defined allegory of The Fairie Queene to the "symbolism" of Gerald man-handling a horse in the face of a locomotive in Women in Love. (The horse is nature. The locomotive is the machine. Gerald is Modern Man Dominating Nature.) In Moby Dick, what is the white whale? Well, there have been many articles and books on the subject, and we still can't reduce this down, because it defies reduction. That was Melville's brilliant stroke. As modern philosophers like Cassirer explored, the human mind reaches for meaning, makes shape out of the flow of sensory chaos. In most of our calculus this shape gets reduced into something fairly one-dimensional, or two-dimensional. Modern (e.g., 20th century) literature tried to break through this restrictiveness with its experimentation. One thinks of Joyce, who, when accused of being "trivial," responded that, no, he was "quadrivial." The remarkable thing was that Melville was traveling in this mental space (wittingly or not) in the middle of the 19th century. Kathie Mack says: Mel, your recent posting provides an epiphany for me. I had never heard of a Menippean Satire before, but this certainly makes sense to me. Are we all Ahabs, with our self-absorbed plans and obsessions, and Moby Dick is the universe/real life that shows us how misguided we are? Should we feel reassured or disappointed that Ahab's men manage to kill Moby Dick in the end after all? Mel Raff says: To Richard Levine, I think you have unwittingly stumbled on some of the central themes of Moby-Dick. The book is less a novel of character than what Northrop Frye called a Menippean Satire. This genre is concerned with ideas, rather than character and plot, and specifically with revealing the folly of those ideas. This story certainly does that, and when you say you leave the book appalled at the cruelty and stupidity of man, you're evincing a splendidly appropriate reaction. I do not think Melville romanticizes this aspect but rather presents that romanticization itself as an object of ridicule. Of course this perspective does not necessarily make the book more attractive to you. Satire is attack, and satires with the depth of Moby-Dick are very intense attacks, often provoking visceral responses. Many people struggle with works of this genre and find them inherently unappealing. Others, like myself, find them as close to the deep truths of life as tragedy, and for that reason we treasure them. Clair Garman says: In response to Tim Rahn's question about the origin of the term scuttlebutt: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scuttlebutt Richard Levine says: I thought that I would share these thoughts with the group although I do not enjoy being the skunk at the garden party or not following the Buddhist third concept of right speech does it build harmony.But I hope that these comments will be productive to the discussion.Perhaps it would work much better if I were there to raise these issues but unfortunately am sick and think that I will have to miss the group discusion. Richard I am going to have the temerity to make an assessment of Moby Dick having read about 560 of the 660 pages . Is Moby Dick overrated? Is there an Emperorers new clothes syndrome. For example, I hear everyone praising the depth of the Whiteness of the Whale chapter and I keep thinking it would be a good freshman English theme followed by next weeks assignment, the blueness of blue, then the blackness of black, etc. It all seemed very obvious and I felt you could jump ahead of the author and make the same profound comments on whatever he wrote before he did. I appreciate the artistry of the language but not the profundity of the discourse. I venture to say we could all make similar speculations using a number of colors as the base. Try it. More importantly, the book seems to lack the philosophical depths of great novels or plays. Ahab is ridiculous, come on, a guy seeking revenge against a whale, and none of the characters are that deeply drawn as are characters in Shakespeare, Dostoyevsky, Hawthorne, of the other Melville works that I have read. Unlike other great works of literature that remain a part of me because they have expressed a perspective that I have incorporated into my own thinking for life, I dont leave Moby Dick the same way I leave many Shakespeare plays or other great works of literature mulling on truths that I incorporate in my thoughts. Actually, I leave Moby Dick kind of appalled at the cruelty and stupidity of man which the book seems more to romanticize than to condemn. I do not find enough redeeming words that can be cherry picked in the novel to spin the novel into a modern consciousness and counter what I see as its general tone stated over and over that the whale is a demon because it has the temerity to fight against its tormenters and killers. And Ahab is a man who hunted a whale for profit and blames the whale for trying to preserve its existence. I read the book only feeling badly that the whale didnt bite Ahab in half at first try so that Melville could have switched his prodigious talents to a more worthy topic. I think the book is a warning about how man can thoughtlessly and cruelly despoil the environment and living creatures, but I think that the book does this not because this is the books intent, but rather because it is not. Furthermore, I find it tiresome to try to read in detail how a whaling ship is constructed or about the internal anatomy of whales as these chapters to me just drag on a mundane story. If I were that interested in these topics from a mid-19th century perspective I would get some treatise on the topic from that era that might be as well if not better informed. The books descriptions of whales certainly fall tragically short of what we now know of their intelligence and social behavioral which in part accounts for the great concern for their survival. Regarding a comparison of Ahab to King Lear, I must admit that when I was much younger I also found Lear a ridiculous figure, but now that I am near or past his age I find him a remarkable and sympathetic tragic figure representative of aging as he seeks to prove he has the love of his grown children to assess the success of his own life and he demonstrates all of the other frailties and misjudgments that are part of human nature and aging. To me he is quite different from Ahab . To me Lear is a figure seeking love and approval which although this can lead to serious misjudgments at various stages of life, are powerful and I would say noble human impulses. The only thing I can say about Ahab so far is that he is a one dimensional figure with a crazy obsession to kill a whale at everybodys expense and is lacking in nobility and sanity. He behaves like a demented tyrant not caring if he destroys everybody and himself. Maybe this is the comparison we should be drawing. I am not commenting on the books artistry which is of the highest level and find that the book has many thought provoking insightful passages, but am commenting only on the last criteria for judging art is it worth doing?. I am writing this with a feeling of great disappointment for I wanted to read Moby Dick my entire adult life and always voted for it as the number one choice for our group, and now I am suffering from a letdown in my great expectations. But that is another theme. I am sorry that I am sick and will not be able to join the discussion and be able to dodge the brickbats which I am sure this missive will provoke. Regards, Richard Tim Rahn says: Did anyone ever find a definition for scuttlebutt? Or did we already discuss the term? Learning the many nautical terms has been a pleasure. Tim Rahn says: I've been impressed by Melville's ability to render technical descriptions and processes into prose that an average Joe or Jane can understand. Given that many of the whaling chapters describe "lost arts" and we can understand--visualize, in many cases--what is happening, this is especially impressive. Which brings me to another point, Melville, like our other two big book authors, has the ability to create cinematic scenes in his writing. In other words, he describes somethings in such a way that you can see it like a movie in your mind. I'm wondering if anyone else has had similar experiences while reading Moby Dick. I'll identify examples of a couple passages for our meeting tonight. Finally, its too bad we can't take a field trip to Nantucket and visit the whaling museum. It would add to our understanding and appreciation of the significance of whaling in our history. Merrill Leffler says: The Pequod has numbers of encounters with other whaling ships -- what are we to make of them? What of other issues for our meeting on Thursday night? 52: The Pequod meets the Albatross 71: The Pequod meets the Jeroboam. Her Story 81: The Pequod meets the Virgin 91: The Pequod meets the Rose Bud 100: The Pequod meets the Samuel Enderby of London 115: The Pequod meets the Bachelor 128: The Pequod meets the Rachel 131: The Pequod meets the Delight Merrill Leffler says: TP Librarian Rebecca Brown has been blogging about Moby Dick -- www.takomapark.info/library/mt/archives/002204.html She has put up all sorts of delicious things, e.g., links to (1) Falmouth Public Library (Massachusetts) and their MOBY DICK EXTRAAGANZA; (2) original Rockwell Kent illustrations; (3) the annotated Moby Dick at www.powermobydick.com, and much more Check it out! Kelly Cresap says: Here's a connection I noticed about ethical compasses and gravitational pull: Chapter 51 includes this description of Ahab: "His lantern swung from his tightly clenched hand. Though the body was erect, the head was thrown back so that the closed eyes were pointed towards the need of the tell-tale [i.e., cabin-compass] that swung from a beam in the ceiling." Father Mapple's sermon in chapter 9 describes a similar effect in Jonah's room: "Screwed at its axis against the side, a swinging lamp slightly oscillates in Jonah's room . . . that contradiction in the lamp more and more appals him. The floor, the ceiling, and the side, are all awry." - - - Also, on the theme of emotional literacy, the passage I was thinking of in our last session is found in "The Whiteness of the Whale": "Though in many of its aspects this visible world seems formed in love, the invisible spheres were formed in fright." I'm looking forward to our discussion. Bob Levine says: Just quickly on democracy: An argument can be made that Melville is very Whitmanian in his commitment to democracy. Note the celebration of democratic man in the concluding paragraph of chapter 27. (At the same time, in that same paragraph note the irony of the narrator saying that blacks and Indians and Islanders are happy to give themselves over to the American enterprise.) In the Squeeze of the Hand chapter, Melville seems to me at his most Whitmanian, which is to say he imagines a democratic leveling among men (all of whom are squeezing their sperm and blending into one another). But where are women in this democratic imagining? The same could be asked of Whitman, who often presents women solely as mothers of men. As I was emphasizing in my presentation, _Moby-Dick_ is often a novel of contradictions. While Melville at times can seem celebratory of democracy, he can also seem concerned about anarchic aspects of democracy (note the "frantic democracy" at the dinner table) and about the too easy way democracy can lend itself to demagogues and charismatic leaders. Also, when the democratic men go after whales, they can seem pretty brutal. No easy answers; no easy visions. For a valuable discussion of the topic, see Dennis Berthold, "Democracy and Its Discontents," in _A Companion to Herman Melville_ (Blackwell, 2006), ed. Wyn Kelley. Merrill Leffler says: On Moby Dick and its possible origin: In May 1839, the Knickerbocker Magazine published "Mocha Dick: Or The White Whale of the Pacific: A Leaf from a Manuscript Journal" by a J.N. Reynolds. In 1846, the editor reminded readers of the dramatic story, which is about hunting the infamous sperm whale Mocha Dick (100 barrels) that was "white as wool"! (Mocha is an island off Chile.) You can read the story at www.melville.org/reynolds.htm So what about the name Moby Dick? Aaccording to the Melville website, a number of conjectures have been put forth, one of which is at www.melville.org/mobyname.htm So what about Moby? John Clarke says: Like many, I've long felt that Melville in Moby-Dick both echoes & renews the language & visions of my favorite Shakespeare play, King Lear, as well as those of the King James. So Kathy Mack's observations were very welcome - & led me to some quick weblinks which others might want to explore. (The 3rd link is to an article that brings up connections between Ahab & Macbeth as well as Lear, & also mentions the King James Bible. And, while none of us will ever exhaust the possibilities for our own virtual marginalia for this rich book, new oceans may await those who care to plunge into Melville's own marginalia in many other books via the 1st link.) 1) Melville's Marginalia Online - http://www.boisestate.edu/melville/IntroFrameset.html 2) The Markings in Herman Melville's Bibles by M Heidmann - http://www.jstor.org/pss/30227597 & 3) Melville / Shakespeare by David Cope - web.grcc.cc.mi.us/english/shakespeare/notes/shakemel.doc Kathie Mack says: Two thoughts: First, although "Moby-Dick" is hyphenated in the title of the first edition, is the White Whale's name hyphenated in the original text? In the Signet Classic edition that I am reading, the title is hyphenated (Moby-Dick) but no textual references are (Moby Dick). Can this just be explained by saying that Victorian punctuation was very different than ours? Second: I read somewhere that Melville wrote Moby-Dick while under Shakespeare's spell. Certainly Ahab's impassioned unreasonableness reminds me of King Lear, with Pip as his Fool. At other places in the novel, I feel like I am reading scripture in the style of the King James Bible. Comments, anyone? Moby-Dick is so huge and various a novel that maybe anything can be found in it! I wish I were going to be available to join in the group discussions of this book. I'm loving rereading it! Michele says: Wally and others who know, Did Whitman promote notion that America was ideal, perfect, "chosen ones"? And Melville showed-- America's (or all "civilized" societies) moral imperfection and actual evil (race, destruction of nature, injustice). Well, not that it was total, but good and bad all joined. Merrill Leffler says: For our second meeting, a couple of suggestions for discussion -- ranging over the first 50 chapters or so, though if you don't get that far, it's all right! ON CHARACTERS -- over the first 50 chapters: * Ishmael * Starbuck: chptrs. 26, 36, 38, 51 * Stubb/Flask: chptrs 27, 30 * Ahab: 28, 30, 34, 36, 37, 41, 44, 46 * Moby Dick 36, 41 Read more closely (or try!) "The Whiteness of the Whale": chapter 42 "The Pulpit" and "The Sermon": chapters 8 and 9 Kay Daniels-Cohen!!! AKA The Kayster!!! says: Great question, Michele...I was wondering the same thing at the meeting...who knows the answer to that one!!! The political comment is way over my head but a very curious comment because I have also thought the same thing...where did this guy get off dragging his Seamen into a quest for an impossible positive outcome...who is that whale in Ahab's life anyhow and does he exist in my (the universal "my") life as well??? Merrill Leffler says: See the NY Times Book Review: Nathaniel Philbrick on Philip Hoare's, THE WHALE: IN SEARCH OF THE GIANTS OF THE SEA www.nytimes.com/2010/03/28/books/review/Philbrick-t.html?scp=1&sq=whale Michele says: "I was wondering how Melville's philosophy here fits into the democratic philosophy of the U.S. at that time - in the tradition of Walt Whitman for example. And how does Ahab's obsessive quest for Moby Dick in which moderation, traditional values, and humanity are sacrificed symbolize the unfettered market capitalism of the time" from Wally's email Michele says: Where did the name Moby-Dick come from and why the hyphen? |